Not ready to make nice
It’s too late to make it right
I probably wouldn’t if I could
Cause I’m mad as hell
Can’t bring myself to do what it is
You think I should -Dixie Chicks
Jamie has an interesting post up over on his site…it’s about sticking his foot in his mouth and getting a foot up his ass for it.
In particular this passage struck me:
When I was younger, my parents taught me to do the right thing. When you wanted something, you said “Please”. When you needed someone’s attention, you said, “Excuse me”. And when you hurt someone, you said, “I’m sorry”. Too bad they didn’t tell me that doesn’t always work. I hate the feeling that I hurt someone for no good reason. I hate the feeling that I can’t rectify the situation. I hate the helpless feeling that the ripples are spreading.
And it dawned on me, that’s not how I was raised at all. My mother and her mother before her were huge proponents of the “don’t be sorry, be careful” school of “what did you say? Here’s a fistful of knuckles and enjoy your tasty refreshing mouthful of blood. My family doesn’t do forgiveness. If you hurt me, I will hurt you back…probably more than once just for good measure and that will be our last interaction. No one hurts me more than once. In college, I was the designated hurter of others on behalf of my friends. “Dawn…I’m inviting Winston over can you be a total bitch to him?”
Yeah, sure, why not? My Saturday’s open. That’s. How. I. Roll.
Er, I mean rolled.
Sigh.
Just like all things, the new age touchy feelie hippie hop head dope fiends sorta got to me with all their What would Jesus Do? But what happens when someone you really really care about does something shitty? Come on Dawn, you can be right or you can be happy.
And so I tried.
Tried to try.
I really really did.
But I suck at it.
Oh man do I suck at forgiving.
Someone is an asshole to me, they say sorry, I say I forgive them and really I just can’t wait for the day when no one’s looking and I can drive a screwdriver through their neck. Not only because of how I was raised, but because I don’t hurt anyone I don’t intend to. And um…this might be an awkward moment for anyone that I’ve given my doe eyed innocent “oh my gosh, I’m so sorry…I had no idea that would hurt your feelings. Sooorryy.” speech to in the past.
I knew.
I meant it.
And, I’d do it again because you were an asshole and lied to me/wasted my time/hurt my feelings/cost me money/looked at me funny/breathed too hard/said unkind words about Buffy the Vampire Slayer (that’s right, sleep with one eye open Ugarles.)
I figure, if I know what I’m doing, so do they. Or they’re retarded and who the hell wants retarded in their life?
And truth be told, in the past few years I’ve found that when I’ve “forgiven” people one thing, they just end up hurting you again in other ways and if you try to forgive those… new and yet still more awesome disappointments are in store. At some point, enough has to be enough. You shouldn’t have to ban someone from your poker game a third time. (And yes, I can admit that since I never really forgave any of them and instead took continuous retaliatory shots, it’s hard to say I ever really gave peace a chance.)
But Jamie’s post made me realize that this is probably unfair. Not everyone realizes that “I’m sorry” isn’t a magical get out of jail free card. (Heh, in fact, in my book “I’m sorry” is just a guilty plea.) At some point I just need to accept myself for the evil vindicative harpy that I am and stop beating myself up for punishing people for their callous behavior.
Look, and I realize this may cost me friendships, but in some ways that word doesn’t mean very much when you’re quietly plotting deaths during a casual afternoon of friendly chit chat.
The forgiveness thing just doesn’t work for me. It’s who am, take it, leave it, but if you piss me off , you will not be forgiven. You will not get a second chance. It’s like the end of the Simpsons’ Hurricane Neddy episode, where Flanders realized his sunny disposition was just making him crazy and he promised that he would let the townspeople know when they upset him and, he adds, with a certain look in his eye, “And if you really tick me off, I’m gonna run you down with my car.”
So, in sum. Ari, if you’d like me to kick Jamie’s ass, just say the word.
That’s how I roll.
I’ve just got to get my present first.
January 27th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
I wish I could be that way… hold it against someone when they’ve done me wrong. Instead I tend to excuse them for it and give them another chance. Then a third, then a 4th, then a 6th, 20th, etc. etc. never minding the fact that it’s me getting hurt time and time again. Maybe we’re the opposite ends of the spectrum and both need to move to the middle. Sure wish there was a way to teach each other how.
January 27th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
C’mon; haven’t you forgiven Karol like, five million times?
January 27th, 2008 at 5:39 pm
Have I? We were talking the other day and I brought up the douchebag post from seven years ago. We’ll call it the grandfather clause. and there’s a people with the same name as me clause.
January 27th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
You just have pronounced male tendencies. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
January 27th, 2008 at 7:55 pm
Oh, casca. You’re going to pay for that.
January 27th, 2008 at 9:20 pm
The second the Giants beat the Pats assume TB (the first chick NFL player, not the 1950’s disease) is on his way to you.
January 27th, 2008 at 9:33 pm
“C’mon; haven’t you forgiven Karol like, five million times? ”
Karol never ever needed forgiving. She has been nothing but sweetness and light in the life of Dawn. And Dawn should thank her lucky stars every day that I found her on a bus.
But you know, I’m with Dawn on this. I fucking hate the doe-eyed “who, me?” bullshit when you’re caught doing something wrong. When I take shots I take them with dead-on accuracy because I mean to take them and I’m not trying to pretend otherwise.
January 27th, 2008 at 10:08 pm
Karol, people make mistakes. And you should know that, shouldn’t you? Do we whip them forever for it? I’m not asking to be given a medal or anything? But I’m also not playing the “who, me?” card either. I did what I did and I’m apologizing because I really AM sorry about it. I fucked up, plain and simple.
So go ahead and keep calling me names. That’s your perogative. But wait until one day when you fuck up and you’re waiting on someone else’s forgiveness. Or are you all completely perfect?
January 28th, 2008 at 3:40 am
Karol is sweetness and light…do you not read English?
A mistake is putting on a blue sock with your black sock or not carrying the one when you add…it’s an unconscious act with wacky humorous consequences…not say deliberately deleting your name and publishing something nasty about a supposed friend. But, regardless, I think if you made a mistake and said sorry once you were caught, that’s all you can do. You can ask for forgiveness, but you need to accept it if the answer is no. Thanks for the mug, though. I do love it.
January 28th, 2008 at 4:56 am
Dawn, haven’t you ever been in a heightened emotional state and done something you regretted later on an impulse? Or is that stating the obvious? I snapped, pure and simple. I haven’t once defended my actions. It was callous and obnoxious, but hardly pre-meditated in the manner you’re suggesting. But this is beside the point. I’ve already gone over all this with Ari at length, though she’s chosen to ignore it and hurl vitriol back in my face. Ok, I’m willing to accept that. I certainly deserve it. What I’m not willing to accept is that a ’supposed friend’, as you put it, wouldn’t eventually forgive me after I’ve been put through the ringer in public. Are we really at the point where one sentence, one phrase, one slip of the tongue (or keyboard) is too much for anyone to handle? If I had meant what I wrote, I wouldn’t be up here on the cross begging her forgiveness. Instead, I’m holding myself up to public ridicule to prove that this means something to me. Does that mean anything at all to any of you? Are you so unyielding in your hatred that you’ll kick me even when I’m down?
January 28th, 2008 at 10:53 am
I hurled nothing, I said my mistake was considering you a nice person. And, you only apologized once you were caught. Not unsolicited. Which leads me to believe that yes, you are sorry, but that you got caught. Said vitriol is a little fantasy that your memory created to make you feel better about being a completely passive aggresive jerk (who again, is sorry that he got caught).
That’s my five cents. I have nothing else to say on the matter.
January 28th, 2008 at 11:24 am
This reminds me of sixth grade. I was a 12 year-old.
January 28th, 2008 at 11:28 am
“Are you so unyielding in your hatred that you’ll kick me even when I’m down? ”
When else would you kick a man?
January 28th, 2008 at 3:02 pm
You know what this thread could use? A photoshop.
Someone snap to it, and quick!
January 28th, 2008 at 3:50 pm
The commenting boosting technique you were using back when you wrote the “I’m sorry” post was very impressive.
January 28th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
HAHAAHHAHAAH…. heres the post http://www.ariagoesdown.blogspot.com/2008_01_01_archive.html#413014407206982135#413014407206982135
January 28th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
she means: here
January 28th, 2008 at 7:20 pm
How did you figure out it was Jamie? Hahahahahahaha
January 28th, 2008 at 7:21 pm
How did you figure out it was Jamie? Hahahahahahahahaha
January 29th, 2008 at 12:35 am
I don’t even know you people, having just followed a link from Alarming News, but I have some advice for Jamie:
Stop groveling.
You had it right the first time (in the comment), and they’re not forgiving you in any case. You’re just castrating yourself here. Fuck ‘em & move on.
January 29th, 2008 at 2:04 am
2/10. I really hope Jamie isn’t a guy, because this type of drama needs to stay entirely female.
January 29th, 2008 at 4:31 am
Good gawd, much ado about nothing. D, I don’t see how you have a dog in this fight.
January 29th, 2008 at 4:45 am
A really touching paean to true friendship, I was glad to read it Dawn. I saw the comment come across on Ari’s & recognized the site tag (??) and knew something was a bit off. Still not funny, even if it was meant as a ‘one off’ sort of deal. It might have even almost ‘passed’ for something silly & ‘impulsive’, but for that pesky definite insult in the last sentence. That’s just a bit much, at least for friends.
Now I’ve got unmarried (male) friends who I tell all the time that their ’stock is falling’ as they get older, but again as I said on my longer comment on that thread (6 Down from Jamie’s), really no one ought to be considered ‘zeros’. But least of all friends.
Is this sort of BS ’screw driver in the neck’ sort of unforgivable? I don’t know. It’s NYC, and hey the educational system being what it is, maybe Jamie has trouble expressing himself well. He’s apologizing well, but of course that really requires receptive ears too.
I’ve got a similar outlook on this ’stuff’, but past a certain point, most folks are not worth the effort of retaliation. I don’t forgive easily, but I can forget. I can deal with you knowing that you insulted or wronged me. It’s typically something that’s necessary as an adult in business relationships. With ‘friends’ & voluntary organizations, perhaps not so much. There seldom will be any 2nd time though. You get one chance to Deliberately F*ck up, and that’s it. There are very few exceptions, even with family. As the wife reminded me this evening I’ve always told everyone I knew to never regard me as a ‘gentleman’. Because at a certain point when pressed, I can go Dawn on your ass. (Well not quite
January 29th, 2008 at 4:46 am
[Geez a shorter character cut off rate too?] Here’s my sign off for the baove comment, as it was cut off:
(Well not quite
January 29th, 2008 at 5:22 am
Casca, I really don’t have a “dog” in this fight. Reading Jamie’s post just made me realize that I’ve been trying to be someone I’m not and I wanted to think through my own feelings on the issue of forgiveness or not. Of course, Ari is my friend and I don’t have any problem saying that I’m completely on her side in this, however, she wants to handle it. So far, she hasn’t asked any of us to shun him or anything, she has just said she personally is done with him and my post was just saying that were I in her place, I would feel the same way.
January 29th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Feelings… nothing more than feelings… trying to forget my feeeeelings of loooooooove. Feeeeeeelings, wohohohohohoh feeeeeelings, wohohohohohoh feeeeelings…
January 30th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
Just a passerby on the blogs and have no say in anything either way. I never comment on them, however after reading your post it made me sad and I felt compelled to say *something*.
I think it’s extremley ridiculous to waste your life & time holding grudges against people that have wronged you in the past. You are not perfect, neither is the person next to you. Shit happens. Apologies are needed. Those that are ballsy enough to say sorry after hurting someone should be appreciated, not repelled by others. Obviously there are things that happen which cut us all deeper than we’d like to admit - but we will not be here forever. Neither will the ones that touch our lives.
I’m not trying to undermine your intent to stand by your friend, I just think it’s sad to think that someone could be so quick to cut people out of their life. I’m sure you wouldn’t want that to happen to you.
January 30th, 2008 at 5:00 pm
I don’t know you, but from you post you sound like a very nasty bitch.
I am really glad I don’t know you.
January 31st, 2008 at 5:16 am
Accidental mistakes can be forgiven with an apology. “Mistakes” done with malicious intent are not mistakes at all. All of which is to say that I don’t agree with the two posters above, and I think your friend is a 10.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:50 am
Obviously I was never implying that Ari is NOT a 10. I’ve been reading her blog for a long time now, and just by her writing anyone can tell that she’s a witty and very smart woman who knows what she wants and deserves.
I also never said that what her friend did was NOT wrong. But he’s been publicly ostrasized for it, and as a reader of her blog, it’s really sad to see that one of my favorite writers is supporting it.
January 31st, 2008 at 6:45 pm
I am really glad I don’t know you.
Man, I don’t have that luxury.
January 31st, 2008 at 6:48 pm
You’re so lucky I take your calls.
January 31st, 2008 at 8:18 pm
Man, I wish I had the opportunity to get to know you better. Let’s be friends already.
Karol already knows I love her Republican ass.
January 31st, 2008 at 10:08 pm
You left me comment, that makes you my best friend. ill put you in my best friend circle on facebook.
February 1st, 2008 at 6:10 pm
oooh facebook? I’m sorry about all that. When I finally get my invite over to your apartment (poker games don’t count), I’ll have you sign my highschool yearbook instead? Deal?
BFF. FFFFFFF. I’m incorporating you into my crew in 2008. Done. Thus sayeth the gay.
February 1st, 2008 at 7:53 pm
I’ll have you sign my highschool yearbook instead? Deal?
Hahahahaha.
February 2nd, 2008 at 2:20 am
Karol…I LOVE you.
“Have a KOOL summer. Never change.”
February 2nd, 2008 at 2:24 am
2Cool2B4Gotten
February 2nd, 2008 at 3:10 am
I auto cry
I auto laugh
2 think u want my auto graph.
—-Babysitters Club Super Special #2
October 8th, 2008 at 11:26 am
[...] Whoa.) I think she especially got animated because, as you all know, forgiveness and I are not well acquainted. I mean, I met forgiveness a couple of times when I was young, but we didn’t really hit it [...]